The power of suggestion

Yesterday Asher peed his pants twice. TWICE. And it was a lot of pee, too – like, an entire BLADDER'S worth of pee, not a “whoops! Better get to the toilet and FAST” kind of pee. I was willing to let it go once; after all, he's a little kid. I get that little kids aren't perfect and I know that accidents are to be expected, especially if getting up and going to the bathroom means interrupting the Very Serious Train Situation that's happening on the floor. So my issue lies not with the fact that he had accidents, but with the fact that he had accidents because he refused to use the bathroom when it was suggested to him that he should.

I know what the Pee Pee Dance looks like, you guys. I'M NO FOOL. But this child is going through a Stubborn Phase (I like to call it a phase in the hopes that he might grow out of it) (PLEASE, GOD) and Dave and I have to be very careful about what we suggest or show a preference for because, no lie, this kid will demand the exact opposite one hundred percent of the time. Sometimes, when presented with a choice of two things, he will actually say, “I want Mama to pick,” which is just a dirty trap because whatever I pick, he immediately decides he wants the other thing AND THROWS A FIT ABOUT IT. Like, the fit is just there on tap, waiting, and he's just looking for a good reason to go ahead with it. It's so SNEAKY and EVIL.

So anyway, yesterday, Asher was going to walk down to the creek with Grandpa, so Dave suggested that he try to use the bathroom before they left. Does this sound like the most unreasonable request in the world? Life is more comfortable with an empty bladder, children of the world! Also, my best guess is that helping you pee in the woods isn't exactly Grandpa's idea of a good time, especially once he finds out how much of it you get on your shoes! But NOOOOOOO. Asher would have no part of this simple process of RELIEVING HIMSELF IN A NICE CLEAN ENVIRONMENT. Tantrum thrown! Kicking! Screaming! Numerous “YOU DON'T WANT TOOOOOO”s. So Dave said forget it, just go already before my eardrums burst or I throw you out a window and ten minutes later Asher and Grandpa were back, and one of them had a big wet stain on the front of his pants.

(As far as I know, Grandpa has excellent bladder control skills.)

We try, we really really try, to trust Asher with the potty thing. We try not to suggest that he go (as hard as that is) but lately his track record is pretty shoddy and for Pete's sake, it's not like we have unlimited pairs of shorts in the house. I guess I just chalk this up as our Official Regression and try to be patient? Is it wrong of me to say things like, “Dude, quit peeing your pants or you're going back into diapers”? I'm also not totally an idiot: Lucy has just started talking, and I know we have been making such a big fuss over her lately (because she's so unbelievably adorable) and I know he's looking for attention. He's started talking in baby talk and being more demanding than usual and it makes sense. But aren't we taking it too far with the peeing? I DRAW THE LINE AT ATTENTION GARNERED BY BODILY FUNCTIONS.

I think it's funny that whenever Asher goes through one of these Stubborn Phases, Dave and I have numerous arguments over who he got this special trait from. Dave swears it's me; I have actual EVIDENCE that it's him. According to his mother, when Dave was 8 or 9 years old, the family had made big, exciting plans to go to the pet store on a Saturday morning and pick out fish for a new aquarium. This was a Very Big Deal and Dave and his two brothers were so excited about it and had been looking forward to it for weeks and then... Dave did something mean to his younger brother, and his mom requested that he apologize.

My husband refused. Would not do it. And at some point, his mother told him if he did not apologize, he was not going to get to go with everyone to the pet store on Saturday morning to help pick out the fish. I think she thought this was her ace in the hole; he was SO looking forward to this new aquarium and being a part of the process of choosing fish.

But do you know what Dave did? HE REFUSED. And he continued to refuse, and his mother had to GET A BABYSITTER for that Saturday morning so that they could leave him behind to go to the pet store. A BABYSITTER.

SUUUUUUURE, he gets that stubborn streak from me. RIIIIIIGHT. (As an aside, how much do you love that woman for sticking to her guns? She's a genius.)

Comments

[Linda]

I DO love your MIL. I'm sure she was kicking herself for making that threat, but she followed through and that is awesome!

FWIW, when C has more than 1 accident in a day, I switch to "Trying Every 2 Hours" mode for a couple days. If she hasn't peed in 1.5-2 hours, she has to sit on the toilet for 2 minutes and TRY. If she goes, the clock is reset for another 1.5-2 hours. If she doesn't, she tries again every 30 minutes until she goes.

It's a PIA for me, so it's not my preference, but after a day or two, she's usually going on her own again. Also, times are adjusted if she's drinking a lot of water.

[Laurie]

My boys (4 and 7) also have this issue of refusing to go before we leave the house. And of course the minute we get to the park or the mall or whereever, someone has to go. Come on people, I do know what I'm talking about some of the time.

[HereWeGoAJen]

From someone who has never potty trained her own child, my only suggestion would be that if you think he's doing it to get attention, don't give him any. If he has an accident, clean it and him up, but in a totally "eh, what do I care" kind of way. "Sure, Asher, use the potty, don't use the potty, whatever, we don't even care." And then, obviously, lots of attention that is totally unrelated to potty.

[Allison]

We went through this very same issue a few months ago. We would gently suggest that our 3-year-old might want to use the bathroom, for example, when he got up in the morning. He REFUSED. REPEATEDLY. Every day. OMG, he made me see red. Who doesn't have to pee when they wake up? And who REALLY doesn't enjoy the 15 minute car ride to daycare when you're convinced that your son is about to let loose in his car seat with a waterfall of pee?

I finally lost it one day when I was cooking dinner after picking him and his sister up from daycare. I asked him several times if he needed to use the bathroom, and he refused. Then, as he sat watching TV 10 YARDS from the open bathroom door, a door that was in PLAIN VIEW, he peed. On a chair. With foam inserts. Which I then had to wash.

The new rule in our house is that the TV does not get turned on (in the morning, the afternoon, whenever) until our son has used the potty. We introduced it as a new rule, made a big deal about it, and refused to back down. It seems to have done the trick, and now that he knows we are serious about it, we can usually bastardize it into versions like "You can't come with me to Target unless you go pee first," etc. Maybe you can use something like that, where Asher can't get out his trains until he uses the potty first?

But good lord, I feel your frustration. It is still fresh in mind, and I know that at any time I am merely centimeters away from that edge again. These kids, they really know what buttons to push!

[Kate]

I realize you did not, at all, mean for this to be terrifying? But as the girl who was presented with tuna casserole at every meal for 2 days because I refused to take one single, solitary bite, marrying the boy who was taken to school in his pajamas more than once because he refused to get dressed in the morning...good Lord. We are in so much trouble.

[yasmara]

I have 2 very stubborn boys who are 19 months apart & we have a "family rule" that no one leaves the house w/o trying to pee (I set a good example and pee first-ha!). It's stated very matter of fact way: "Remember, the family rule is you have to try to go to the bathroom before we leave the house." If they don't try, we don't go. Period. End of story. No screaming (from me at least), no bargaining, that's it.

It only took a few times before they realized that it was a rule we wouldn't break. I think that's they key with stubborn kids - they test you to see if you might change your mind. As soon as you do, they know that they were right & that you really didn't mean it!

I want to emphasize that (usually) this is all done in a calm, reasonable way. It's not a punishment, it's not a reward, it's just a fact.

Of course, don't create the rule right before you have a required trip to the grocery store or need to get to church on time or something! You may have to do some advance planning to make sure that you really can enforce the rule that week - make it stick!

In my experience with my stubborn kids, if you go back on something you've told them they need to do (aka, put your toys in the toy bin or we won't go to the park but then you end up cleaning up for them & still going to the park), they will just keep doing it!

The key is to not engage to make it a battle - that's where I have a hard time sometimes & have to remind myself to keep it firm, but CALM. It's not a negotiation or a battle. The flip side is recognizing when something *isn't* important to me & not making arbitrary rules that I don't actually care about - i.e., what they are wearing (assuming it's reasonably weather-appropriate). Obviously, if there are too many rules, the kids are never going to follow all of them.

I have a little mantra - calm, consistent, calm, consistent, calm, consistent...it doesn't always work to keep me calm, but if I can, the kids respond better.

Anecdote time - we were in an airport bathroom & my 4.5 year old threw a MAJOR screaming, crying tantrum (over-tired) about washing his hands. I didn't have any hand sanitizer with me to offer as an alternative, acceptable option, so I just stood there as he screamed and said, "As soon as you wash your hands, we will go find Daddy & get a snack." and "We are not leaving until you wash your hands." This went on for what seemed like forEVER but was probably only 2 or 3 minutes. He calmed down, washed his hands, I praised him for calming down & doing his job, and we started to leave. A grandmotherly lady stopped me and said, "I just want to say you're doing a really good job. I see too many parents who just give in to bad behavior."

I think it made my YEAR & totally made me cry because I had been trying SO HARD to stay calm & keep it together while my kid freaked out & everyone stared at us! It can be so hard parenting active, stubborn, crazy kid & my sympathies are always with anyone having trouble in public because I have BEEN THERE, done that.

The good news is, we have zero potty battles - they have learned that if they don't try, they don't get to do whatever activity we have planned (and we didn't even have to hire a babysitter - but I guess, like Dave's mom, you have to be prepared for that to happen!).

I have also had good luck using a timer - like Linda said, try every 2 hours. Set the timer for 2 hours & prep with "When it beeps, it's time to pee." Then you can tell him, "Do you hear the timer beeping? The timer is telling you it's time to pee." Maybe the timer will be a neutral party - it's not mom/dad saying it's time to pee, it's the timer!

We often use the timer for toy sharing - when both kids want the same thing, we set the timer for 5 minutes & the toy is handed over when the timer beeps. Sometimes we go back & forth a couple of times, sometimes only once.

Good luck!! Potty issues are so frustrating.

[NM Liz]

I don't know if it's a boy thing or not, but mine is 6 and he (as well as his friends) can be dancing around, wiggling, etc, and still say "NO! I don't need to pee at all!" I've found myself saying "If you have to hold it in with your hand, it's time to go to the toilet!" Luckily he doesn't have accidents, it's just frustrating to deal with such obvious denial of reality.

Anyway, what worked for us was the same as someone mentioned above -- he has to try to use the toilet before we leave the house. No exceptions. It may mean not leaving the house a couple of times, so pick non-necessary errands when you implement it, not things that you HAVE to do. Good luck! It's hard, but it does pass.

[Jen]

With my daughter, her issue was "I don't HAVE to go pee" so she wouldn't use the potty before we went anywhere. Well, TWO can play at this game, so I explained to her that I didn't want her to go "pee" in the potty, I wanted her to go "Pre-Pee-Pee" I then explained that its what you do before you go on a trip/walk/etc BEFORE you have to go pee. My daughter is very Literal, so now when we go places and I ask her to go potty before we leave she says "I don't HAVE to go" and I immediately say "OK, go "Pre-pee-pee" and she says "OK". No clue how she became so Literal (cough, cough) but I try to work my way around her when I can. I hope this either helps, or at lest makes you smile when you realize the different kind of crazy we have at our house :)

[maggie]

you should follow her example and be tough with. I had to do it with my (almost) four year old but now he'll do just about anything if I tell him I'm taking away a toy or privledge.

I *hate* when the older kid starts baby talking because the younger one is just learning...it drove me crazy when mine did it!!

[Parsing Nonsense]

Oh man, potty training is the worst! I remember when my niece was getting potty trained, she'd hold it for so long (out of sheer refusal to use the potty) that she actually enlarged her bladder and her doctor ordered her to go to the bathroom more often because her mondo bladder was squishing her other important organs.

[Patty]

Oh goodness, I FEEL your pain!!! My son does this sometimes too... In fact, he'll get really angry at me about something or other, and just unload onto the floor (one time I wouldn't give him the remote, and he went over to the wall, turned to face me, and peed). When he has more than 1 "accident" in a day, he starts going in to timeout after I make him sit on the toilet and get cleaned up. It generally works for a while, until he gets some other bug up his butt about something, and then we have to do it again.

[Swistle]

I do love her for refusing to have her bluff called!

We say EVERYONE has to go potty before we go anywhere, even grown-ups. The trouble is, sometimes a child stands at the potty, pants down, and STILL claims not to need to. And of course needs to several minutes later.

[Orion]

How does relieving a toddler in a public place go? I always seem to have a little bit of trouble with my nephews...

[Sara]

On the not making decisions, you could try a "magic" object, like a 50 cent or dollar coin. Heads one thing, tails another, what the coin says is the rule. That way your not making the choice, Asher doesn't have to make the choice, and the magic coin is law. Odds are when you throw the coin up, he'll tell you what he wants. Most people know the moment the coin is in the air which side they want it to land on.

Side note: My parents have to have a magic glass to get me to drink ANYTHING. And the only magic glass that worked was a shot glass. That lasted for almost a year, every family member went I bought one for when I visited.

[Mama Bub]

Just reading this made me agitated. Potty training is so unbelievably frustrating. I do not understand how my kid can OBVIOUSLY have to go and still tell me no when I ask him. My doctor says it's a totally normal boy thing and I may just have to take him to the bathroom regularly until he's five or six and able to walk away from what he's doing, of his own volition, to pee. UNTIL HE'S FIVE OR SIX he said.

[ANNIE]

I'm very sad to say that I think Christopher gets his stubborn (OH SO STUBBORN) streak from me. The other day I mentioned this to Tim's mom and she did that thing where you try to make the person talking (me) feel better by saying that he probably gets it from all of us...but you know that's a giant load of SLOP. ANYWAY.

When Chris doesn't want to stop what he's doing and go potty he'll yell at me, "THE PEEPEES AREN'T COMING OUT!" This leads to a brief discussion on The Proper Way To Talk To Mommy followed by a "One...Two...run to the potty before mom gets to Three." Tonight, however, when I asked Tim if C had peed before putting on his jammies (knowing that he hadn't" I fully expected a fight. One that I was not looking forward to because I had just put Nate down and the bathroom is RIGHT NEXT to N's room. What I did not expect was C's response - "No Mom. My peepees already went Night Night and they aren't waking up."

It's right up there with his response when I questioned him on why he peed in his underwear recently: "I was feeling too peepee-ish mom."

[Pippi]

My daughter gets stubborn about the potty. Two things work most of the time. I tell her she can't go (we're usually on the way out of the house) unless she uses the potty. And then we don't go. It rarely comes to that, however. We also get her stuffed animals to suggest she go to the potty. This works, but unfortunately for about 3 weeks her stuffed frog had to ask her to go the bathroom, remind her that she couldn't use her potty with her pants up, and then actually pull down her pants. Seriously. She wanted the frog to help her pull her pants back up, too, but I convinced her it was impossible because it didn't have fingers.

When times are tough I remember my great-grandmother's advice to my grandmother: It's just one damn stage after another. It pretty much it up.

[Carrie]

My son is four and since the beginning of our potty training experience when asked "do you have to go potty?" the answer has always been "no". Not one, single, time has he ever said yes. We finally learned from one of our awesome pre-school teachers that we shouldn't ask him if he has to go, we should tell him he has to try. So now we always just say "it's time to use the potty" and if he says he doesn't want to, I tell him that he has to try and if nothing comes out it's okay but he still has to try. This has really worked, and similar to someone else's post above we have stuck to our guns enough that he complies without a melt-down anymore (most of the time).

I'll also share with you another thing that has worked with us for tantrums and meltdowns. As background, I like to say that my four year old "feels things deeply" (which is code for he freaks out and has major tantrums and meltdowns over very minor things. Even by four year old standards, it can be extreme). I had read so many books and nothing seemed to help b/c he was so emotional during these times there was nothing to do but just put him in his room until he wore himself out. BUT THEN! we discovered a trick that actually worked. When he over-reacts to a situation we say strongly and firmly "NO! NO TANTRUMS. YOU ARE A BIG BOY AND YOU DO NOT THROW TANTRUMS". (also can be replaced with YOU DO NOT SCREAM, YOU DO NOT HIT, etc.) I know it sounds overly simplistic, but doing this seriously reduced the time it took him to calm down so we could move on with our lives. He hears "NO TANTRUMS" and that seems to trigger him to try and control his reaction. He still struggles with freaking out about small things, but I realized that I had to tell him what was an acceptable reaction to a situation b/c his natural reaction is too extreme.

I know you are thinking about putting Asher in pre-school and I'll tell you that the teacher's can be SO HELPFUL! Both of the solutions above were suggested originally by my sons pre-school teachers and it was such a God-send! Often times they have 15+ years of dealing with toddlers under their belt and can help give you solutions that work. At first this made me feel like an awful parent, but then I remembered that I've only been doing this for four years so they are supposed to have more tricks up their sleeve than I do!

If you are reading parenting books I would also recommend "1, 2, 3 Magic". We have used that and it has definitely helped improve behavior.

Good luck!

[Pippi]

Carrie reminded me of another thing that works wonders -- I don't ask my daughter to do things unless a "no" is an acceptable answer (or at least I try -- asking politely is a tough habit to break). If a "no" isn't real option, I tell what I want her to do. "It's time to use the potty. You can choose which buddy you want to help you" will see her happily trotting off to the potty with her froggie or lamb or cat but ask if she wants/needs to use the potty will get a big, fat no. It works with lots of other things as well.

[A. Marigold]

Pretty sure that refusing to use the toilet when suggested is normal. Don't worry about being patient and suggesting. Just throw him in there.

[wordygirl]

Oh, man. Gwen is only two and she is already showing signs of pure-grade stubbornness. I fear for our future! And I know JUST what you mean about the fit being "on tap" and just WAITING for an excuse to kick into gear.

[Suzanne]

Uh, yeah, my potty training track record is spotty but we just had our 3 year visit to the ped and she told me - 2 things we don't fight about - potty training and food. She said the more you make an issue about it the more the kid will fight it. And I have the kid who likes to make a power struggle out of everything.

We have the same issue, if we suggest using the potty then automatically she refuses. What we've started doing is just saying "you have to go potty before X happens (tv, going somewhere, whatever) so you let me know when you are ready to go potty." And then we leave it at that. And yes sometimes she just wets her pants. In that situation, she still has to go sit on the toilet anyway and then get a clean pair of underwear. I just keep a pile of underwear and a diaper pail with a wet bag liner in the bathroom so we can take care of business right there.

Potty training and and having a 3 year old are argument enough to never have another kid. I don't want to deal with this again.

[Lisa]

I didn't read all of the comments, but my son was fairly well trained and just turned 3 when his brother was born. He completely used wetting his pants as a means to get attention at any point that we were holding the baby and not doing what he wanted. It was clearly an attention thing. You mention that his sister has gotten a lot of attention lately, and I bet they are related a little.

We solved it with two approaches, if he asked for something we'd say, "Ok, Let me just count to ten/ after this commercial/when that bird flies away" ANYTHING other that something with the baby. Immediately he didn't associate the lack of attention to him to the baby. The other approach was to not ever be visibly upset about the pee. Just clean it up and calmly say, "ok, here's dry pants. Next time you'll pee in the potty." Totally made it a non-event.

[bethany]

mom of four weighing in:
1) why was he allowed to go with grandpa if he refused to pee? My kids simply can't leave the house if they've been told they have to pee first. They have all missed trips to the pool, etc, and know that I mean it. This is a battle I choose to fight; some people don't choose this particular battle, and that's their perogative. They also have a lot of wet pants in their laundry.
2) this will be unpopular and I won't check back for bashing comments, but I spanked my little boy for the kind of accidents you describe--ones where he simply couldn't be bothered to go to the bathroom, and emptied his whole bladder on himself. It WORKS. He is four and hasn't had an accident in more than a year except the "we're stuck on the freeway, pee your pants if you have to and I won't get mad" kind :)

[Becky P.]

If he wets his pants cause he was to lazy to stop playing and go to the bathroom hand him a roll of paper towels and make him clean up the mess. I saw that on a potty training tv show once and it worked for my kids. They sure won't like cleaning up the mess themselves and it usually stops the behavior. You can always do a better job with sanitary wipes etc after he leaves the room. My boys 5&6 still get mad sometimes when I say go use the bathroom or we are not going anywhere... they stomp their feet but they do head off to the bathroom.